"Hold Ubisoft Accountable" Trends as it's Reveled Ubisoft Still has Not Fixed Abusive Culture.

[m76]

On 5/26/2021 at 8:12 PM, Shagger said:

I don't know why I try with you. You live in an alt-right bubble and just refuse to see the truth of the world around you.

 

Yeah, call it "Alt-Right" consider it a win.

I'm a leftist liberal, on most issues political,  and I'm not from the US, so calling me "alt right" makes about as much sense as calling the pope a Tibetan satanist.

If you actually heard me out you'd find that I'm opposed to the alt right on about 99% of the questions, including gay rights, abortion, gun control, religion, covid policies and so on. The only thing I seem to agree on with them is that cancel culture is toxic, and is nothing more than mob justice. And calling ubisoft and other workplaces abusive very much seems like part of cancel culture to me.

My only "sin" is that I believe in due process and that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  Cancel culture says accusation equals being guilty, without any recourse.

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You haven't posted any evidence to back up what you believe like I challenged you to, you call out my sources with no evidence of their alleged bias and have not have posted any facts or evidence at all. You're not a stupid man, but you are a deluded one.

I don't understand, how can I prove a negative? I said that I've found no evidence that the workplaces of these companies are actually abusive. How can I prove that I have found no evidence? Both Yong and Jim base their videos on articles by bloomberg and gamesindustry, they just add their own spin on it to meet the  youtube algorithm's sweet spot in video length. They are not good Samaritans but very much business man. There is nothing there that is fact, it's just their own opinion on the articles.

 

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You can have your social/political views and that's fine, but it becomes a problem when it effects how you view facts.

You have zero idea of my social views because you refuse to even hear them with an open mind.

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You twist the facts about BLM to make them out as looters and terrorists,

BLM the organization are not looters and or terrorists, they just support the destruction of property and side with the looters. And say vile things like "end white comfort" as if that is a perfectly level headed and non-racist thing to say. Why do you even bring this up here, like it has anything to do with ubisoft? Your argument is because you disagree with me on BLM, therefore I'm wrong about corporate culture and ubisoft? As a moderator It's time to moderate yourself and move this to off-topic / political discussion.

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you completely blanked out Bioshock Infinite's blatant overtones on racism because you don't like them

That's not an argument. I'm not struggling with repressed racism, and thus white guilt, I view every person from every group as equal, until I see their individual contributions to society. And I'm not afraid of statistics, because I know that just because crime rate in black communities is higher does not mean that black people are more criminal, it means there are social and cultural issues that needs addressing. However BLM and woke culture says nothing is wrong here, everything is the fault of white supremacists and racism and they think only they can uplift black people by oppressing white people. That is so blatantly racist, it beggars belief, because it suggests black people can only succeed if white people are not allowed to compete with them. As good as saying black people are inferior.

Let me ask you this: Before the civil rights movement crime rate was lower, and there were much less single parent families in the black communities. So does that mean America is more racist and more oppressive towards blacks now than it was then? 

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and now Ubisoft being proven to have a history of an abusive work culture is a lie because it's nothing more that people complaining about having to work?

What I've seen described as abusive work culture is common practice in competitive industries, not just gaming, but VFX, and others that I have insights into.  As I've said I found the actual description in one article of one supposed workplace abuse, which didn't seem like abuse to me. More like "I don't like being called out for not putting in enough effort in the earshot of colleagues"  So by that description I assume the rest of the abuse is similar, unless  you can point me to descriptions of other events. I'm not saying that ubisoft is guaranteed innocent, I'm saying I don't see evidence for a guilty verdict.

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Here is the difference between you and me. I'll take some explaining, so I beg your patience.

Now, you are mocking me, I've been trying to honestly explain everything to you in hopes of actually getting through.

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I work at a shipyard where at least 90% of the staff on the floor are men, and not just men, but some of the most crude, bloakish, outspoken, foul mouthed, red blooded, "old school" grunts you could ever meet. Without some seriously thick skin, you simply wouldn't survive there.  It's not like the management are much different either, but we all know the line between "speaking the language" so to speak and being abusive, and it takes going to extremes to be considered abusive in this place, believe me. So I tell you I know the difference between harassment and abuse and jossing around and having a laugh.

What I don't understand is how can you pass judgement on another workplace based on the little actual available facts.

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Obviously I haven't worked for Ubisoft, so I can't say where the lines were and how they were allegedly crossed, but what I do know is that the standard is not set by me, you or anyone specifically. I know that somebody from my work behaving the same way at another job could easily be considered abusive or offensive and it would be their fault, not the fault of the other people working there. So you see, you don't need the exact description of this alleged abuse because you don't set the standard. It's up to the person(s) being targeted what is too far, not the one doing the abuse. If I saw the details, it is possible I would not see the big deal either, but I'm self-aware without being self-centred, so I only need the victim to see it as wrong for me to feel the same.

You just perfectly described cancel culture and the exact reason why it is unsustainable and bad. Abuse must be clearly defined. If we say that whenever you "feel" abused you are actually are, then that's the very definition of cancel culture.  We can't leave this up to feelings ,there must be a clear standard of what is actually acceptable at the workplace and what isn't. Anything else is anarchy and a culture of fear. Fear because if one person takes the smallest things as abuse even a joke, then you get canned for it, is really unfair. And you end up with an actual toxic workplace where everyone is sitting in their cubicles afraid to speak to anyone else, lest they offend somebody. Paraphrasing wiser people than me: Just because you are offended, doesn't mean you are right. 

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THAT is the difference between you and me. It is quite possible that you are smarter than me, I'm willing to admit that, but I'm not nearly as selfish or arrogant. I can stretch my imagination to understand where other people are coming from with what they say. Something is only wrong if it's wrong for you. Nothing hurts unless it hurts you. Nothing is real unless it's real to you. That's your problem. I know it's a cliché and I'm embarrassed to use it, but you really need to get woke.

Oh, I understand wokeness, and I despise it, because it is inherently unfair. I very much understand that some people tolerate more than others, including me, some things hurt me more than it does other people, and other things I can take better. The difference is that I don't wish reality to bend to my individual will and feelings, because it would be unfair to other people. Reality can't bend to everyone's will at the same time, so we must have a middle ground, that we can uphold.

For example yesterday I've had a 16 hour work day, because we had a job to do. And there were two options. Either we finish the job and go home, or we don't and we have to stay in a foreign country and sleep in a random motel. If I had a subordinate who decides that working 16 hours a day is abuse should they be able to get me fired? Because that is what you seem to be advocating for. That if they feel abused then they are.

Edited May 28, 2021 by m76

[Reality vs Adventure]

6 hours ago, m76 said:

That's not an argument. I'm not struggling with repressed racism, and thus white guilt, I view every person from every group as equal, until I see their individual contributions to society. And I'm not afraid of statistics, because I know that just because crime rate in black communities is higher does not mean that black people are more criminal, it means there are social and cultural issues that needs addressing. However BLM and woke culture says nothing is wrong here, everything is the fault of white supremacists and racism and they think only they can uplift black people by oppressing white people. That is so blatantly racist, it beggars belief, because it suggests black people can only succeed if white people are not allowed to compete with them. As good as saying black people are inferior.

Let me ask you this: Before the civil rights movement crime rate was lower, and there were much less single parent families in the black communities. So does that mean America is more racist and more oppressive towards blacks now than it was then? 

Do you believe there is systemic racism in the USA? I don't think you understand how deep racism is here. I myself comes from a white family. I'm Hispanic and look white with Hispanic features, Hispanic from Spain, not Mexico. My mom is white. My sister is white like your everyday white girl. I was raised with them two. It's even hard for me to imagine what people go through that don't have white blood in them. I've gotten beat up by cops twice. Once on a school morning when I was still in high school. And another later on before the age of phone cameras. I was singled out of a crowd, shoved to the ground and beat up by cops in a crowd of white people, who were near a construction site and police were trying to clear the area. I had no clue what was going on. I was just talking on my phone minding my own business. So if my features are enough to create violence, anyone darker than me is so screwed in this country. I ask you to sympathize a little more. BLM may have its faults, but the oppressors have even more. And the past administration has turned 60% of whites into nazis as that is the percent that voted for the outright bigot a second time. And we have a civil war brewing in the face of racism we haven't had since our first civil war while blacks were fucking slaves. So I ask again, can you show a little more sympathy? I can understand where you come from being white. Like I said, I grew up in the white environment and have witnessed the ignorance of it in my own family and friends first hand. My own mother denied racism existed in the neighborhood we lived in. She told me to dress better, get  clean cut, and stand up straight. But never acknowledged racism. So it ate away at me for a long time. I began to get anxiety and think something was wrong with me. But I realize now, this whole time they were racist. And when I got a Mexican girlfriend, I finally was able to talk about these things with someone who was familiar with it and sees racism firsthand too as she lived in the same area. WTF are people to do at this point when politicians are now actively working against them and falling in step with white supremacist views? 

[Shagger]

I wouldn't waste your time @Reality vs Adventure.  What we clearly have is a deluded, sheltered, ignorant, stubborn individual determined to deny reality because acknowledging reality would burst his bubble. Sexual harassment, systemic racism, gender inequality, homophobia, bullying in the workplace, unfair treatment, just convince yourself that these things don't exist and the world will be better.

 

That's not someone being singled our for being black, he's just the most suspicious person there. Thank you law-man for beating that "suspicious" man up and treating me with civility and restraint because I don't look "suspicious", unlike him. 

 

I love working with woman in the workplace and see them as just a capable as anyone else. That, over there, is not a woman being groped, that's just an example of a playful, fun workplace. She should stop wanting to be treated with respect and just enjoy the attention. It's a compliment, really.

 

I'm not transphobic, I'm just saying that, so called, "transgender woman" has to use the men's bathroom. I don't care that the statistics show he is far more likely to be the victim of a sexual assault, It makes ME uncomfortable, and that's all that matters.

 

I don't have an issue with gay people, just don't put them in my games and movies. I'm not being homophobic, it's just having such things in my entertainment is bringing "politics" into it, because that's the only reason anyone would have LGBTQ+ representation in the games, TV shows and movies I like. Politics. Creative liberty only exists when it suits me.

 

That's not someone being degraded and overworked, that's just some kind and gentile encouragement to do better. If I get, so called, "mistreated", the answer is for everyone to be "mistreated" the same way, then we're all equal. How could there possibly be another answer?

 

Blacks have themselves to blame for the way they are treated because they call attention to the fact they are treated differently. They are basically calling themselves inferior because it's not possible for a white person to be offered better opportunities as a result of the colour of their skin.  Look at the stat's. There were less single parent families in America and lower crime rates before the civil rights movement. That can only mean things were better back then. Obviously segregation wasn't racist because I don't suffer racist abuse, so it clearly didn't exist then any more back then it does now.

 

All this talk about prejudice make us non-prejudiced, straight, cisgender white people uncomfortable, so let's stamp it out so we can feel better. The only way to end prejudice is for everyone to shut up about it. That's the idea, but how to do it...  Wait, I got it! Let's push the narrative that people protesting inequality are actually the bad people! Mention at random black communities have higher crime rates and point looting happens when they protest, just work it in there somehow. Say "Calling out racism is racist because that's saying there is some kind of difference". Yeah, that'll do. Point out you yourselves have been given a hard time and not had it easy despite being white, so no black persons problems can have nothing to do with race. That's good stuff. And, most important, don't ever acknowledge any of the facts that prove prejudice and mistreatment are real as facts. If people find out about them, they'll start to think, and we don't want them to think. If we convince enough people to stop claiming that prejudice exist it'll just disappear. That's how we achieve equality. It's especially important for all us whites to band together and declare "I'm not racist, so no other white can be!" instead of acknowledging this alleged "racism" and deciding that silence on the issue from us non-racists is, in fact, the problem. Those people who try to call this out are just "snowflakes".

 

/end sarcasm. Obviously, some of the examples about are exaugurated and I'm just using them to make a point. Prejudice is only part of the problem, silence on it is the real issue. I don't believe for one second that you are racist or any other form of prejudiced, but as such it's up to you and other people who are not subject to it to speak up. You don't have to be prejudiced to help sustain it.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Shagger