Were any incarnations of Booker and Elizabeth present in Bioshock 1 or 2?

[StaceyPowers]

SPOILERS BELOW

 

 

I still have not played Burial at Sea, but I have now played Bioshock 1, 2 and Infinite.

So much about Infinite felt (and feels) like a puzzle I am trying to solve. I thought playing 1 and 2 would provide some answers, but I have nothing but more questions and confusion.

Elizabeth said, “There’s always a man, always a lighthouse, always a city.” Obviously, we’ve got the lighthouse and the city. But who is the man?

Is Booker Andrew Ryan? Jack? Delta? And what about Elizabeth?

The clearest parallels seem to be between Elizabeth and Eleanor, and thus potentially between Booker and Delta. We know Delta is a diver that the people of Rapture nicknamed “Johnny Topside,” but his real name was never revealed. Then again, his name wouldn’t necessarily matter. That could be a variable.

I am aware that a “Booker” exists in Burial at Sea, which just increases my confusion. Not that two versions of a man can’t exist in one universe; obviously that was all over Infinite.

The other odd thing is all the links in the environment, as well as other parallel figures in the stories.

Like it’s strange to me that the plasmids exist in both worlds, and the vending machines are nearly identical, and so forth. And there are similar characters like Fink and Fontaine (who could be the same man). But I could easily imagine the same personnel who would join Rapture would also find their way to Columbia.

Lamb certainly reminds me of Comstock, though it would seem odd to assert that Delta and Lamb are the same person.

Anyone have any theories about all this, particularly Booker and Elizabeth’s potential Rapture identities?

@DylanC Tagging you again in hopes you have some thoughts to share.

[DylanC]

44 minutes ago, StaceyPowers said:

SPOILERS BELOW

 

 

I still have not played Burial at Sea, but I have now played Bioshock 1, 2 and Infinite.

So much about Infinite felt (and feels) like a puzzle I am trying to solve. I thought playing 1 and 2 would provide some answers, but I have nothing but more questions and confusion.

Elizabeth said, “There’s always a man, always a lighthouse, always a city.” Obviously, we’ve got the lighthouse and the city. But who is the man?

Is Booker Andrew Ryan? Jack? Delta? And what about Elizabeth?

The clearest parallels seem to be between Elizabeth and Eleanor, and thus potentially between Booker and Delta. We know Delta is a diver that the people of Rapture nicknamed “Johnny Topside,” but his real name was never revealed. Then again, his name wouldn’t necessarily matter. That could be a variable.

I am aware that a “Booker” exists in Burial at Sea, which just increases my confusion. Not that two versions of a man can’t exist in one universe; obviously that was all over Infinite.

The other odd thing is all the links in the environment, as well as other parallel figures in the stories.

Like it’s strange to me that the plasmids exist in both worlds, and the vending machines are nearly identical, and so forth. And there are similar characters like Fink and Fontaine (who could be the same man). But I could easily imagine the same personnel who would join Rapture would also find their way to Columbia.

Lamb certainly reminds me of Comstock, though it would seem odd to assert that Delta and Lamb are the same person.

Anyone have any theories about all this, particularly Booker and Elizabeth’s potential Rapture identities?

@DylanC Tagging you again in hopes you have some thoughts to share.

Honestly, i’s been a very long time since I played Bioshock 2 or Infinite, but I have been playing through Bioshock recently (I’m playing on survivor difficulty and am about 3-4 hours in). 

As a result, I find it difficult to comment in too much detail as I can’t remember too much about it. Also, I wanna play Burial At Sea and Minerva’s Den as I’ve got them now in the PS4 HD rerelease, but have never actually played them.

IIRC, there are definitely parallels between Lamb and Comstock. The “man” Elizabeth refers to could be either Booker, Jack or Delta - it’s difficult to tell. The plasmids existing in the same worlds makes sense thematically and mechanically imho. 

Probably not the most detailed, enlightening comment, but I’ll ruminate on it some more and try and chime back once I’ve played it a bit more.

[StaceyPowers]

 

 

 

2

22 hours ago, DylanC said:

Honestly, i’s been a very long time since I played Bioshock 2 or Infinite, but I have been playing through Bioshock recently (I’m playing on survivor difficulty and am about 3-4 hours in). 

As a result, I find it difficult to comment in too much detail as I can’t remember too much about it. Also, I wanna play Burial At Sea and Minerva’s Den as I’ve got them now in the PS4 HD rerelease, but have never actually played them.

IIRC, there are definitely parallels between Lamb and Comstock. The “man” Elizabeth refers to could be either Booker, Jack or Delta - it’s difficult to tell. The plasmids existing in the same worlds makes sense thematically and mechanically imho. 

Probably not the most detailed, enlightening comment, but I’ll ruminate on it some more and try and chime back once I’ve played it a bit more.

There is never any explanation about the Vigors in Infinite, though it is conceivable that someone could have found the same slugs in that universe. Perhaps the lighthouse marks their location along with being an elevator up to Columbia?

I’m going to be playing Minerva’s Den pretty soon. Then Infinite again, then Burial at Sea. I’m super stoked about Minerva’s Den since I’ve heard so much about it.

 

[DylanC]

13 minutes ago, StaceyPowers said:

There is never any explanation about the Vigors in Infinite, though it is conceivable that someone could have found the same slugs in that universe. Perhaps the lighthouse marks their location along with being an elevator up to Columbia?

I’m going to be playing Minerva’s Den pretty soon. Then Infinite again, then Burial at Sea. I’m super stoked about Minerva’s Den since I’ve heard so much about it.

 

Yeah, Minerva’s Den is supposed to be great so I’m looking forward to it, too. Hmm, I always thought there was an explicit explanation/connection to vigors in Infinite to the seaslugs in Bioshock.

This may help and is courtesy of the Bioshock Infinite Wiki: 

“Although Vigors differ from Plasmids in their application (drunk rather than injected directly into the blood stream), they share the same origin. Using the Lutece Device to look at other worlds, Jeremiah Finkeventually witnessed in November of 1894 the work of the geneticist Dr. Yi Suchong in Rapture and his creation procedures for Plasmids.[1] From this point, he assembled a laboratory to research and release them as Fink Manufacturing products. Fink also organized several underwater expeditions all around the Atlantic ocean in order to acquire and study Sea Slugs, whose ADAM is the base for Plasmids and Vigors.[2]

Research wasn't without risk and led to accidents, such as Devil's Kiss Vigors setting fire to a factory building in October 1900, which was then separated from the city to avoid its spread but condemned all workers trapped inside.[3] The incident was covered up by Fink Manufacturing who assured the population of the tonic's safety once released,[4] although it only resumed production eight years later by Policedemand.[5] These incidents eventually raised public concern as far as in early July 1912, and Fink reassured Columbia's fair inhabitants that it was a necessary evil for their own safety.[6] He also took the opportunity of hosting the 1912 Raffle and Fair the same month to promote and sell his products, including Bucking Bronco trials and free Possession giveaways.[7] Yet, a few people were still cautious about the next Vigors and preferred to wait for Fink to improve their stability.

Fink's notes on the Vigor variations.

Even with active marketing to sell Vigors, Fink was losing money due to the cost of the underwater expeditions.[2] In early June 1912, he went to think about changing the structure of his Vigors to their original form and less expensive on ADAM: injectable Plasmids. He also went to copy the design of syringes used in Rapture to cut the cost of making individual bottles for each tonic.[8]”

[StaceyPowers]

@DylanC Thank you, that was incredibly insightful. It also sheds light on why use of the vigors in Columbia doesn't seem to be all that widespread. 

[kingpotato]

I think that Andrew Ryan could be a version of Comstock, as well Fontaine could also be a version of Daisy fitzroy the vox leader, or maybe Daisy is a version of Dr. Tenenbaum, Fink could be a version of Dr Suchong since they both created the Crow Warden and the Big Daddy or Vigors or plasmids, although it was my understanding that the creation of the warden and the vigors was a result of them sharing their investigations. Delta being a version of Booker makes sense as well as Eleanor being a version of Elizabeth, Eleanor is the daughter of Andre Ryan and if we think of Andrew as being a version of Comstock it makes sense.

[StaceyPowers]

7 hours ago, kingpotato said:

I think that Andrew Ryan could be a version of Comstock, as well Fontaine could also be a version of Daisy fitzroy the vox leader, or maybe Daisy is a version of Dr. Tenenbaum, Fink could be a version of Dr Suchong since they both created the Crow Warden and the Big Daddy or Vigors or plasmids, although it was my understanding that the creation of the warden and the vigors was a result of them sharing their investigations. Delta being a version of Booker makes sense as well as Eleanor being a version of Elizabeth, Eleanor is the daughter of Andre Ryan and if we think of Andrew as being a version of Comstock it makes sense.

Fink and Fontaine seemed most closely paralleled to me. Nobody quite seemed a fit with Daisy to me. Tenenbaum and Leuteces to me seemed parallel.

[kingpotato]

13 hours ago, StaceyPowers said:

Fink and Fontaine seemed most closely paralleled to me. Nobody quite seemed a fit with Daisy to me. Tenenbaum and Leuteces to me seemed parallel.

I was actually not sure where to pinpoint the Leuteces on the previous games, I'm still trying to comprehend their nature even after beating the game

[StaceyPowers]

On 3/4/2020 at 6:27 AM, kingpotato said:

I was actually not sure where to pinpoint the Leuteces on the previous games, I'm still trying to comprehend their nature even after beating the game

Both them and Tenenbaum to me fell into the archetype of "indifferent scientist who grew a conscience." Arguably they are the voice of conscience in both games.

[kingpotato]

On 3/7/2020 at 2:47 PM, StaceyPowers said:

Both them and Tenenbaum to me fell into the archetype of "indifferent scientist who grew a conscience." Arguably they are the voice of conscience in both games.

Oh that actually makes sense