Would you want to rule benevolently or malevolently?

[Jakeyjake]

This thread is inspired by an old thread I made about whether or not it is wrong to step on bugs, but with a different subject. There is an episode of the Twilight Zone called the Little People where a couple astronauts get stranded on a distant planet and while repairing their ship, they stumble upon a tiny civilization of intelligent, flea-sized people who are at least sophisticated enough to build houses, boats, trucks, cities. They appear to be identical to humans in all aspects except their size. 

Stills from episode:

As you can picture, what happens next is an alien version of Conrad’s Heart of Darkness. One of the astronauts decides he’s going to be their god and begins to dominate the little people through fear and cruelty, based on no godly qualities except the advantage of having evolved to be massively bigger than them. It was a cool episode.

Anyway, what’s interesting (at least to me) is that I don’t think I’d act very differently from that guy in his circumstance. If I somehow came across a planet (or better yet, an island) of tiny little people that were the size of fleas or smaller to me, I could see myself immediately taking advantage of the fact that I would be a a giant to them. I would love the chance to be revered (and even feared) as a god. Furthermore the chance to have total control over the development of an entire society would greatly appeal to me. Why let them have self-determination if through sheer force, I could make them engineer their society in my own image?

In spite of what I’d do in the above situation, I wouldn’t consider myself to be an evil or bad guy. Far from it actually. I’m generally considered to be an all-around great guy by friends and coworkers. I volunteer as an EMT and coach track for no pay. And besides the fact that I have no problem stepping on bugs (which I'll admit to doing often), I'm great with animals.

How would you behave when in a situation where you gain absolute power over others? Would you be kind or cruel? Or would you walk away from the situation? Try to stay respectful of one another!

 

[Reality vs Adventure]

1st thing that comes to my mind is something I remember from the bible that says animals are here to benefit man. To me it sounds like a green light to abuse animals. If humans are more intelligent and have a 'higher consciousness' than other animals, then it is our responsibility to protect their ecosystems, treat them respectfully, and not drive them to extinction or torture them in slaughterhouses as we seem to do.

I believe that a person who tries or wants to dominate others to build the likes of what they want, has simply crossed the threshold into an authoritarian view.

I would simply ask the little people. Do you want my help? Of course I would prank them all the time. I would stomp around and hawk loogies at them. If I was mad I’d give them a golden shower. But it takes a special kind of nerve to try and dominate them.

If I put that ring of power on my finger, will I turn mad? I don’t believe so. I have lost confidence in humanity, but I haven’t lost confidence in my own humanity.

So I slip on that ring and try it out. My head is spinning and I am speaking in tongue! Now kneel before your master! I am the almighty! I own you! Ahhahahah! I will gut you all! I will tie all your bowels together and hang you from… Oh no the ring just fell off my bony finger. Ahem!! What just happened?

[The Blackangel]

I don’t care enough about humanoid life to waste my time or energy. If they want to worship me, then all I have to say about that is go for it. Praying to me would be in vain, because I wouldn’t answer, assuming I even knew it was happening. As long as they didn’t get in my way, they would see an uninterested goddess, that truly doesn’t give a shit about them. If they did get in my way, they would go extinct.

[Jakeyjake]

On 9/26/2020 at 10:34 AM, Reality vs Adventure said:

1st thing that comes to my mind is something I remember from the bible that says animals are here to benefit man. To me it sounds like a green light to abuse animals. If humans are more intelligent and have a 'higher consciousness' than other animals, then it is our responsibility to protect their ecosystems, treat them respectfully, and not drive them to extinction or torture them in slaughterhouses as we seem to do.

I believe that a person who tries or wants to dominate others to build the likes of what they want, has simply crossed the threshold into an authoritarian view.

I would simply ask the little people. Do you want my help? Of course I would prank them all the time. I would stomp around and hawk loogies at them. If I was mad I’d give them a golden shower. But it takes a special kind of nerve to try and dominate them.

If I put that ring of power on my finger, will I turn mad? I don’t believe so. I have lost confidence in humanity, but I haven’t lost confidence in my own humanity.

So I slip on that ring and try it out. My head is spinning and I am speaking in tongue! Now kneel before your master! I am the almighty! I own you! Ahhahahah! I will gut you all! I will tie all your bowels together and hang you from… Oh no the ring just fell off my bony finger. Ahem!! What just happened?

I would never abuse animals myself... I have a dog and would be really pissed at anyone who hurt him.  I do step on bugs, though, often purposely.  But what could I say: I'm a guy.  😛

I agree with you that wanting to dominate them would be authoritarian.  What I am saying is that I wouldn't mind being authoritarian in that situation.  If I were the giant invader to some tiny race of aliens, I would fully intend to fulfill the role of the dominant oppressor.   Would I be losing my humanity in that case, or living up to it?

Edited October 9, 2020 by Jakeyjake

[Reality vs Adventure]

Well, you made clear your intentions that you would want to dominate them. You should answer your own question. I've made my answer clear already. To extend on humanity, would you feel you lost humanity? What is your interpretation on humanity? I have a post where I think humans are parasites. But that is simply a truth of devouring resources of the environment we live in and destroy it. That's on a mass scale. 

Individuals are different. Strains are different. You have enough consciousness to know right from wrong. To feel sympathetic. If you lack that basic core of humanity to sympathize, then you become the parasitic strain. It is the devolved species of humanity that can't sympathize. It becomes animalistic, to kill, to dominate, to urinate around your territory. Higher intelligence makes all life valuable. And by intelligence, I mean the consciousness to know right from wrong. 

[Jakeyjake]

10 minutes ago, Reality vs Adventure said:

Well, you made clear your intentions that you would want to dominate them. You should answer your own question. I've made my answer clear already. To extend on humanity, would you feel you lost humanity? What is your interpretation on humanity? I have a post where I think humans are parasites. But that is simply a truth of devouring resources of the environment we live in and destroy it. That's on a mass scale. 

Individuals are different. Strains are different. You have enough consciousness to know right from wrong. To feel sympathetic. If you lack that basic core of humanity to sympathize, then you become the parasitic strain. It is the devolved species of humanity that can't sympathize. It becomes animalistic, to kill, to dominate, to urinate around your territory. Higher intelligence makes all life valuable. And by intelligence, I mean the consciousness to know right from wrong. 

I don't feel as though I would have lost humanity.  As I said in my original post, I'm a pretty good guy by most standards.  And I am fully capable of sympathy.  I'm just more sympathetic to some than to others.  In the situation I described, I would be sympathetic to them, but it would be after I crushed their military and forced them into submission. 

The alternative to dominating them would be to leave them alone but I actually don’t think that would be possible. Eventually such a tiny race will want to either fight with or involve such a giant being in their own conflicts.  Here’s another question: if they preemptively attacked, do you think it would be justified for me to retaliate in force? Would they be justified in trying to take out an unknown threat just because I'm a giant to them?  

[m76]

This seems like cruelty for the sake of cruelty to me. I'd gain nothing by dominating them, there is nothing that they can offer me. Their worship and fear is of no benefit to me. So why do it if not for pure evil/cruelty? 

Of course if these tiny people would invade my home like ants, then I'd be forced to take action. But assuming they are capable of communication I'd first try diplomatic means to get rid of them.

[Jakeyjake]

8 hours ago, m76 said:

This seems like cruelty for the sake of cruelty to me. I'd gain nothing by dominating them, there is nothing that they can offer me. Their worship and fear is of no benefit to me. So why do it if not for pure evil/cruelty? 

Of course if these tiny people would invade my home like ants, then I'd be forced to take action. But assuming they are capable of communication I'd first try diplomatic means to get rid of them.

I disagree with your statement that there is nothing to gain by dominating them.  I can think of plenty that they could offer, especially if I was stranded in an alien environment with limited resources which is what took place in the episode in question.  I'd have very mindful and utilitarian reasons for the use of my power, which wouldn't necessarily result in any destruction. So I think you're incorrect in saying they would have nothing to offer.   Food for example would be pretty important.   At the size shown in the OP, I feel that an advanced enough civilization  could sustain such a giant being. Given, their scale would surely require a concerted effort to support my appetite.  They would need to devote an absurdly huge portion of their economy, industry, and labor to the task, but I do think it would be possible.  I might also need them to locate bodies of water for me to consume.  As well, I do have male sexual needs.  If I were isolated I have to fulfill those needs somehow.  I'm a pretty creative guy, and I can think of plenty of ways the little guys could help with that.  😃

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Jakeyjake

[Reality vs Adventure]

I thought about the same thing, that if I left them be then they would fight each other or consider me a threat and go after me. To move first and force them into submission is the basic core of fear that is an animalistic instinct. You allow yourself to be a devolved humanistic species that lives in fear and reacts on the fight or flight response without the ability to rationally contemplate things, control their own reaction, or to fully feel sympathetic. A human with a higher intelligence is capable of having sympathy for all. You can't just choose what you want to sympathize with.

To look down on or underestimate any intelligent species will always result in conflict. And conflict never truly has winners. Either side will always look for opportunities to strike until compromise is made. And even if you try to subvert them without use of destruction, then there is always a high chance of retaliation. Retaliation sees no rules and it means payback will be a bitch if they ever get the chance in any way or form. Becoming the offender that you fear others will become is tribal. Humans have the ability to perceive a threat, and make decisions after looking at all options. To inhibit that ability and let fear take over, makes your consciousness devolve into a species always reacting and not thinking.

Being a giant and much more powerful gives you the right to feel secure and to trust in the smaller people. Fearing that civilizations can't survive without your intervention or to conquer them before they get you is classic authoritarianism. If they attack you, then you can obviously defend yourself. You would have the right to cripple them till they surrender. Then negotiate your future co-inhabiting the land. And I would think the little people wouldn’t have reason to attack you, or feel justified to attack if you hadn’t done anything wrong. If you made it clear you were there to help and gain their respect, they wouldn’t have reason to perceive you a threat.

Don’t mean to take all the fun out of imagining yourself as a God or the all and powerful. But to be powerful, does that mean you have to conquer or force into submission? You can rule by leading a productive society. They can build you a giant tv if you help carry supplies from a mountain so they can build cities.

When it comes to food, and the little people are preparing it for you out of forced labor, then they can easily discover poison too and put that in your food to liberate themselves. There is always opportunity for liberation when dominated.

[Jakeyjake]

1 hour ago, Reality vs Adventure said:

I thought about the same thing, that if I left them be then they would fight each other or consider me a threat and go after me. To move first and force them into submission is the basic core of fear that is an animalistic instinct. You allow yourself to be a devolved humanistic species that lives in fear and reacts on the fight or flight response without the ability to rationally contemplate things, control their own reaction, or to fully feel sympathetic. A human with a higher intelligence is capable of having sympathy for all. You can't just choose what you want to sympathize with.

To look down on or underestimate any intelligent species will always result in conflict. And conflict never truly has winners. Either side will always look for opportunities to strike until compromise is made. And even if you try to subvert them without use of destruction, then there is always a high chance of retaliation. Retaliation sees no rules and it means payback will be a bitch if they ever get the chance in any way or form. Becoming the offender that you fear others will become is tribal. Humans have the ability to perceive a threat, and make decisions after looking at all options. To inhibit that ability and let fear take over, makes your consciousness devolve into a species always reacting and not thinking.

Being a giant and much more powerful gives you the right to feel secure and to trust in the smaller people. Fearing that civilizations can't survive without your intervention or to conquer them before they get you is classic authoritarianism. If they attack you, then you can obviously defend yourself. You would have the right to cripple them till they surrender. Then negotiate your future co-inhabiting the land. And I would think the little people wouldn’t have reason to attack you, or feel justified to attack if you hadn’t done anything wrong. If you made it clear you were there to help and gain their respect, they wouldn’t have reason to perceive you a threat.

Don’t mean to take all the fun out of imagining yourself as a God or the all and powerful. But to be powerful, does that mean you have to conquer or force into submission? You can rule by leading a productive society. They can build you a giant tv if you help carry supplies from a mountain so they can build cities.

When it comes to food, and the little people are preparing it for you out of forced labor, then they can easily discover poison too and put that in your food to liberate themselves. There is always opportunity for liberation when dominated.

 

I don't agree with your statement that you can't just choose what you want to sympathize with.  I don't think I would sympathize with someone who would hit a dog, for example.

 

As for the chance of reducing conflict: Well.. I suppose there is always the soft approach that includes helping them and cooperating, but I feel that's less advantageous and opens myself up to being exploited or even attacked while unaware.  Letting them organize or even maintain a military seems insane to me, in that situation.  Even if I were some hulking titan to such tiny beings, I would be just one against many.  Let them have weapons they could turn against me at any time?  That's nuts.  I would crush their military first thing, then target the structures they’d normally consider sacrosanct – civilian targets. I’d stamp my feet down on their schools, hospitals, nursing homes. Imagine how powerful a deterrent it could be, if it was made clear that any dissent would result in a gargantuan white sneaker coming down to flatten a school building or the nursing home granny is playing bingo in. *crunch!*  The little guys wouldn't dare risk striking back.  People who live in a state of constant terror and paranoia are easily controlled and unlikely to organize.   Plus, like I said, I would want to conquer them rather than cooperate.  Why would I want them standing on their own feet, when I could force them to their knees and have thousands kissing mine?  😃

Would that make me a bad guy?  I don't think so, and most people think I'm not.  I guess my feeling is, at the end of the day does godzilla care about the humans he steps on?  At that size, I sure wouldn't.  But then again, I'm the kind of guy who steps on bugs instead of around them.   

Edited October 10, 2020 by Jakeyjake

[m76]

4 hours ago, Jakeyjake said:

I disagree with your statement that there is nothing to gain by dominating them.  I can think of plenty that they could offer, especially if I was stranded in an alien environment with limited resources which is what took place in the episode in question.  I'd have very mindful and utilitarian reasons for the use of my power, which wouldn't necessarily result in any destruction. So I think you're incorrect in saying they would have nothing to offer.   Food for example would be pretty important.   At the size shown in the OP, I feel that an advanced enough civilization  could sustain such a giant being. Given, their scale would surely require a concerted effort to support my appetite.  They would need to devote an absurdly huge portion of their economy, industry, and labor to the task, but I do think it would be possible.  I might also need them to locate bodies of water for me to consume.  As well, I do have male sexual needs.  If I were isolated I have to fulfill those needs somehow.  I'm a pretty creative guy, and I can think of plenty of ways the little guys could help with that.  😃

 

Your question was in general, now you are moving the goalposts by referencing this specific situation seen  in a tv show.  Still if you were on an alien planet they offer little of nutritional value, they can't help you in any meaningful way since they are tiny. But let's assume they had something that was essential to your survival that you cannot obtain in any other way. Even then, WTF would I go straight to domination? That's crazy. Just ask them to give me what I need. If they are intelligent surely they can realize that I can offer them much more as an ally instead of an enemy.

Something is seriously wrong with you, if all the reason you need to subjugate people is that you can.

 

[Reality vs Adventure]

8 hours ago, Jakeyjake said:

I don't agree with your statement that you can't just choose what you want to sympathize with.  I don't think I would sympathize with someone who would hit a dog, for example.

But what if that dog was the size of little people or size of a bug you don't mind crushing? Would you still have sympathy for that dog?

Humans have the ability to be rational and look at a situation and separate the offender and the abused. Who had more suffering? The person hitting the dog, or the dog getting hit? And for this instance let's say the dog did not bite anyone. So of course no rational being would sympathize with the person hitting the dog.

If the dog bit the person, then you could sympathize with the person. But if the dog was the size of a puppy, or even a puppy itself, and bit the person, would it still be ok to hit the dog risking serious damage? We have the ability to make a rational decision and not react in quick anger to seriously injure the small dog.

Not being able to sympathize to all that suffer, after rationalizing the situation; or having sympathy for an offender without rationalization makes you complicit in the support of abusive behavior. And not being able to sympathize with those you hurt makes you the abuser.

[killamch89]

Quite frankly, I would rule benevolently as in, I'd leave the animals in their natural habitats and put strict laws in place to protect them. I'd also ensure that every single person is at least able to sustain themselves. It doesn't make much sense to not help the impoverished because left unchecked, that is one of the main culprits of crime so I'd ensure that everyone's basic needs are met. I'd also remove this upper class/lower class segregation as it breeds prejudice and discrimination. Every human is born equally so they should have equal privileges and rights.

[The Blackangel]

7 hours ago, killamch89 said:

Quite frankly, I would rule benevolently as in, I'd leave the animals in their natural habitats and put strict laws in place to protect them. I'd also ensure that every single person is at least able to sustain themselves. It doesn't make much sense to not help the impoverished because left unchecked, that is one of the main culprits of crime so I'd ensure that everyone's basic needs are met. I'd also remove this upper class/lower class segregation as it breeds prejudice and discrimination. Every human is born equally so they should have equal privileges and rights.

Equal rights, yes. Equal privileges, no. Rights should be automatic. Clean food, clean water, shelter, etc. Privileges are like respect. It must be earned, and never granted.

[Jakeyjake]

On 10/10/2020 at 5:42 AM, m76 said:

Your question was in general, now you are moving the goalposts by referencing this specific situation seen  in a tv show.  Still if you were on an alien planet they offer little of nutritional value, they can't help you in any meaningful way since they are tiny. But let's assume they had something that was essential to your survival that you cannot obtain in any other way. Even then, WTF would I go straight to domination? That's crazy. Just ask them to give me what I need. If they are intelligent surely they can realize that I can offer them much more as an ally instead of an enemy.

Something is seriously wrong with you, if all the reason you need to subjugate people is that you can.

 

I appreciate your honesty.  However, I don't know if I misexpressed myself but there would be very material reasons I would want to subjugate them.  In the post you quoted, I listed tangible needs that one way or another, would need to be fulfilled. 

As to why domination would be my first choice: in that situation, I have a sense that such a tiny race would see a giant as an existential threat and would plot to take me out, which I would be insane to allow.  As well, if I were stranded, I'm not sure it would be even possible to cooperate or leave them alone.  Given limited resources and limited space, eventually I would get sucked into their own conflicts.  It would be a question of whether to interfere in their conflicts, or wait for them to involve you me them.   Why give up the upper hand by waiting?  

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by Jakeyjake