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Reality vs Adventure

Republicans signing bills into law in red states to make it illegal to talk about or teach about current/historic racism in schools

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@m76 You're pretty damn sure the election was stolen too, aren't you?

I'll grant you that you may be talking about what you see in your country. But you haven't the slightest clue what's going on over here. Racial profiling has skyrocketed during the Adolf administration. Racist propaganda was endorsed by Adolf. Not publicly, but it was evident to every American whether they wanted to admit it or not. Everyone who wasn't a straight, white, cis, xtian was on the chopping block. I was on the chopping block. I'm part of the LGBTQ+ community. I'm not a xtian. I'm Satanic. I'm in a wheelchair. The comments I hear from people are enough to make me want to kill. Despicable things. But my family (not by blood) are Hispanic. They were racially profiled the entire time they went out. They would get nervous when they saw a sheriff or state trooper go by because they thought that they were going to be separated and caged due to the policies set up by Adolf. Despite them all being AMERICANS.  Systemic racism is rife within this country, and you have no right or privilege to try to say it isn't because YOU DON'T LIVE HERE, HENCE YOU DON'T WITNESS IT.

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On 6/25/2021 at 9:51 PM, Shagger said:

 

These claims you make that people who call out racism are racist because, in your head, it means that those people "don't believe that minorities are capable" are unfounded and completely ridiculous. The only person who has ever implied such a possibility is you. It's YOU that putting that ridiculous theory out there.

I ask you again. Explain how thinking that blacks or other minorities are incapable of competing with with people of the US on a level playing field is not racist.

I'm not putting anything out there I'm stating observable facts.

On 6/25/2021 at 9:51 PM, Shagger said:

What you're basically saying is that all of us are racists except you,

Not everybody except me, but every white person who thinks they need to save black people in the US by discriminating against other white people.

Remember I'm not from the US, I'm a completely independent observer of the lunacy that is unfolding in the US. I'm neither democrat nor republican. When it comes down to actual policy I side with democrats on most things except this.

 

On 6/25/2021 at 9:51 PM, Shagger said:

the one who referred to the BLM movement as looters and criminals,

Again with this strawman? You tried this already and I told you that I referred to them as protecting and justifying looting, not as being looters themselves.

On 6/25/2021 at 9:51 PM, Shagger said:

because we call out it out where it's engrained into society and institutionalised rather than on a personal more level. 

Show me an example of racism on an instituional level. You can't. Because institutions are not racist. Or engrained. LOL you are preaching about a mythical phenomenon that everybody should accept on faith and nothing else. 

On 6/25/2021 at 9:51 PM, Shagger said:

Racism isn't just calling a black guy you see see walking down the street a "ni**er" or a "monkey", it's more complex than that. But no, it's me and the others who post about this systemic, institutionalised racism are the racist because, again according to you, "we don't believe minorities can succeed in a fair world". As aforementioned, that claim is bullshit, but more to the point the racism were talking about does exist because this is NOT a fair world! It is not a world where minorities, woman, the LGBTQIA+ community, the disabled and so on are consistently given a fair chance and fair opportunities.

Show me one circumstance where black people are not given equal opportunity. Just one. The only way it can happen is if a rule is applied in bad faith by a racist individual! But that is not systemic racism, that's one individual, which I was talking about all along.

On 6/25/2021 at 9:51 PM, Shagger said:

To deny that is prejudice.

That sounds like you are calling me out for blasphemy.

On 6/25/2021 at 9:51 PM, Shagger said:

An indirect form of prejudice, but prejudice none the less.

Actually you are the one who is prejudiced because you assume every institution is racist  and we need affirmative action to make them not racist.

On 6/25/2021 at 9:51 PM, Shagger said:

The deniers, the hypocrites, the people that insist there's nothing wrong because they don't want to believe there is something wrong. Who does that remind you of?

I'm not saying there is nothing wrong, there are plenty of things wrong in the US, but none of it is caused by racism on institutional levels.

On 6/25/2021 at 9:51 PM, Shagger said:

You never address any evidence put up by anyone, you just ignore it. Despite saying this this earlier in the thread;

What evidence? There was zero evidence of racism engrained in institutions put forward.

On 6/25/2021 at 9:51 PM, Shagger said:

I bet you never read the link @Crazycrab provided, did you?

You mean the one, that 100% proves me right?

The law is banning theories from being taught in schools that say:

(1) Any race is inherently superior or inferior to any other race, color, or national origin.

(2) The United States is a fundamentally racist country.

(3) The Declaration of Independence or Constitution of the United States are fundamentally racist documents.

(4) An individual’s moral character or worth is determined by the individual’s race, color, or national origin.

(5) An individual, by virtue of the individual’s race, is inherently racist or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously.

(6) An individual, because of the individual’s race, bears responsibility for the actions committed by other members of the individual’s race, color, or national origin.

I 100% agree with banning anything from being taught that fulfils these criteria. No person should be disadvantaged due to their group identity, or be in an advantageous position due to it. This bill literally wants to ban racial prejudice. How can you interpret this any other way?

 

On 6/25/2021 at 9:51 PM, Shagger said:

So how dare you imply imply those claims about us. You, of all people. Not once on this forum have you ever called out racism. Every time time the subject comes up, all you've ever done is deny it that even happens, including in this very thread. You deny it exists and you try to demonise people who speak out against it. And you know what, I'm getting a little tired of it.

Again. You are trying to conflate institutional racism (myth) with actual racism (fact). It is very disingenuous. I didn't call out racism on this forum because I never seen it take place here. Which is a good thing, and I assume you'd moderate any actual racist remarks anyway.

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@m76 People have presented examples of institutionalised racism, systemic racism and examples of how people are not offered opportunities or judged more harshly based upon race, gender , gender identity, sexual orientation ect on numerous occasions on these forums and you never acknowledge them, so would I waste my time doing so again just for you to just say "that's fake" or whatever? I refuse. Look back over the social/political discussions on the forum, you'll find all the same examples you already ignored. Failing the forum, there's always the internet. Either way, I'm going through the effort just for you to ignore it and not even bother to read then or twist them round. Hate to break it to you, but you're not worth the effort.

 

Still, it's nice to know you "100% agree" that people should only be taught the US is not a fundamentally racists country even though racism has been a constant part of thier history and even founding. Yeah, let white people say it didn't happen untill that means it didn't happen and we learn nothing. People didn't have to fight to put an end to slavery, people didn't have to fight for civil rights, that was all just made up.

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7 minutes ago, m76 said:

Show me an example of racism on an instituional level. You can't. Because institutions are not racist. Or engrained. LOL you are preaching about a mythical phenomenon that everybody should accept on faith and nothing else. 

Less funding for black schools, communities, infrastructure like having lead in water, gerrymandering, policing (discriminatory suspicion laws), prison system, healthcare, and driving while black (sarcasm).  

9 minutes ago, m76 said:

Show me one circumstance where black people are not given equal opportunity. Just one. The only way it can happen is if a rule is applied in bad faith by a racist individual! But that is not systemic racism, that's one individual, which I was talking about all along.

I'm not about to write a whole essay as it's for awareness. I see where you are coming from and many times it is individual actions that penalize blacks and makes systems look bad. But colored communities are always underfunded in many different areas as compared to white communities. And this happens even in democratic cities and states. But at least democrats acknowledge it and there have been attempts to equalize the gap only to be struck down by the GOP. It is engrained across both party lines no one thing will change systemic racism. It needs to include everything from education to housing and everything in between. Equal opportunity starts in grade school which are underfunded in black communities. Then discrimination laws and individual racism gets minorities arrested more including underage victims. Then they have a record before being 18 years old in many instances. And harsher punishments, first by individual judges, then by a prison system that is funded by the number of inmates, who are mostly colored. Then as they progress in life, they have to worry about healthcare. That has many instances of individual racism, but the rates tend to be higher for minorities for many different reasons. And even during this pandemic, more white communities got the funding and care needed under trump during its peak. But the racism is engrained so deeply, you can't just pin point one cause and then say blacks have all equal opportunity. Cause they don't. They can move and get a house right? What loans? They can go to college right? Sure, and work 2 jobs at the same time. They can look for a job right? Yeah good luck after that criminal record. They got health insurance right? Yeah but just don't get sick cause you won't afford out of pocket pay. 

You have a strong case that it is individuals messing it all up. But it is both individuals and institutions. But when it is systemic problems from an early age, and then given equal opportunity in college, that's like an innocent man getting out of prison, then out in the world he is expected to find that great job and be successful like everyone else. Cause that is the American dream with equal opportunity. And if you are poor, you are just lazy. If you protest, you need to go get a job. If you kneel, you hate the military and freedom. If you terrorize the capital, you are a patriot. 

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1 hour ago, m76 said:

You mean the one, that 100% proves me right?

The law is banning theories from being taught in schools that say:

(1) Any race is inherently superior or inferior to any other race, color, or national origin.

(2) The United States is a fundamentally racist country.

(3) The Declaration of Independence or Constitution of the United States are fundamentally racist documents.

(4) An individual’s moral character or worth is determined by the individual’s race, color, or national origin.

(5) An individual, by virtue of the individual’s race, is inherently racist or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously.

(6) An individual, because of the individual’s race, bears responsibility for the actions committed by other members of the individual’s race, color, or national origin.

I 100% agree with banning anything from being taught that fulfils these criteria. No person should be disadvantaged due to their group identity, or be in an advantageous position due to it. This bill literally wants to ban racial prejudice. How can you interpret this any other way?

Now apply that to teachers who teach the civil war, civil rights, klan, or anything related. You better watch what you say or you will get fired. And if the books teach something wrong as in my example of the Texas revolution? You get fired for saying anything other than what is in the books. They also are adding emphasis on the evil of communism in curriculums. Why not include fascism too? As I said before, it was under fascist rule that committed the greatest evil. 

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1 hour ago, Reality vs Adventure said:

Less funding for black schools, communities, infrastructure like having lead in water, gerrymandering, policing (discriminatory suspicion laws), prison system, healthcare, and driving while black (sarcasm).  

Is there a legislation that specifically says black schools and communities should get less funding? No, they are victims of various circumstances, and it is these circumstances that should be addressed. That's what I was suggesting all along. Declaring that institutions are racist does not help anyone in any way shape or form.

The lead in the water is also a symptom of impoverished neighbourhoods, where I assume lead piping is still installed in the infrastructure. Which is a crying shame if true and should be addressed immediately instead of trying to declare the water supply racist, or some such meaningless statement.

1 hour ago, Reality vs Adventure said:

I'm not about to write a whole essay as it's for awareness. I see where you are coming from and many times it is individual actions that penalize blacks and makes systems look bad. But colored communities are always underfunded in many different areas as compared to white communities.

Now we are getting somewhere. They are underfunded because there is higher crime rate, which drives away business, so there is no investment, no development there. And what is the BLM / CRT solution? Defund the police. Yeah, that should do it! I don'T know if it's malice or just misguidedness. but they are deepening the issues not helping them. Even the founder of BLM has moved to a white neighborhood to escape the crime, so if the safest place for a BLM activist is a white neighborhood we can't talk about racism and racially motivated violence and discrimination as the problem can we?

1 hour ago, Reality vs Adventure said:

And this happens even in democratic cities and states. But at least democrats acknowledge it and there have been attempts to equalize the gap only to be struck down by the GOP. It is engrained across both party lines no one thing will change systemic racism. It needs to include everything from education to housing and everything in between. Equal opportunity starts in grade school which are underfunded in black communities.

What is stopping democratic cities from giving equal funding to those schools? There is nothing in the way. The problem is that democratic politicians are no better than any other. They virtue signal all day long while they are not in office, but then do nothing to solve the issue (see also, biden and the border).

I'm all for equal opportunity, but it seems to me that BLM and CRT advocates for equity, which translates to "give me all your shit now or else"

1 hour ago, Reality vs Adventure said:

 

Then discrimination laws and individual racism gets minorities arrested more including underage victims. Then they have a record before being 18 years old in many instances. And harsher punishments, first by individual judges, then by a prison system that is funded by the number of inmates, who are mostly colored. Then as they progress in life, they have to worry about healthcare. That has many instances of individual racism, but the rates tend to be higher for minorities for many different reasons.

Yes, many different reasons. Of which racism is a very tiny if even measurable contributor. Releasing prisoners who actually committed crimes won't solve the problems of black neighbourhoods.  It's already an issue that they made a martyr out of a petty criminal. Not saying he deserved to die, but painting him as a  saint and an example of a victim of racism does not help anyone, especially not the black communities.

1 hour ago, Reality vs Adventure said:

And even during this pandemic, more white communities got the funding and care needed under trump during its peak. But the racism is engrained so deeply, you can't just pin point one cause and then say blacks have all equal opportunity. Cause they don't. They can move and get a house right? What loans? They can go to college right? Sure, and work 2 jobs at the same time. They can look for a job right? Yeah good luck after that criminal record. They got health insurance right? Yeah but just don't get sick cause you won't afford out of pocket pay. 

I see it as a poverty problem, and as a culture problem. A trailer trash white kid has no better chance of going into college than a black kid from the hood. It's not racial. And when people make it about that I think that helps nobody. I did not see an actionable plan by any of the advocacy groups that would actually help. All they say is if you are white you are automatically racist and have privilege. Which kind of seems scapegoating to me. And I'm sorry but I have to go there: This is the exact same kind of scapegoating that the nazi party did before WWII "Hey germans, all your problems are caused by the jews" Now BLM: "Hey black people, all your problems are caused by whiteness" I don't know how this helps, but it will sure fuel division and can even cause racism to re-ignite, which I Think was mostly pushed to the fringes by the 80s - 90s.

 

1 hour ago, Reality vs Adventure said:

You have a strong case that it is individuals messing it all up. But it is both individuals and institutions. But when it is systemic problems from an early age, and then given equal opportunity in college, that's like an innocent man getting out of prison, then out in the world he is expected to find that great job and be successful like everyone else. Cause that is the American dream with equal opportunity. And if you are poor, you are just lazy. If you protest, you need to go get a job. If you kneel, you hate the military and freedom. If you terrorize the capital, you are a patriot. 

You raid the capitol you are committing a crime, just as the people who loot and destroy property in the guise of a protest.

I'm the last person who would say that if you are poor you are lazy. Because I know how much of a  role luck has in success. That's why I find personal cults highly suspect. When they praise people for being successful. Successful people are just as much of a victim of circumstance as poor people. Being at the right place at the right time, to get the opportunity.  The only privilege is being born into wealth. But CRT would say that the kids of Will Smith are less privileged than any white kid due to historic racism. Which is utter nonsense. You want to help blacks you need to look into poverty, not into racism. Because their problems are not causes by racism. For example single parent black families were much fewer before the civil rights movement. So if racism is the real issue that would mean America is more racist now than it was in the sixties. That just does not add up to me.

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@m76 So let me get this straight. Black communities have more criminals in them, things were better before the civil rights movement for black people because there's more black single parent families now than before the civil rights movement (that's likely true pretty much everywhere in the developed world regardless of race, but whatever), campaigners for equal rights are comparable to the Nazis and pointing out the alarming statistics surrounding how black people are handled by the law in the US "distracts from the real issue" that black people are more poor, and they're poor because "bad luck".

 

I don't think I have anything left to say.

Edited by Shagger
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@m76 We have to agree to disagree on every point. Communities of color have not been properly represented by politicians through the years, and as such has left those communities under funded and under represented. Sometimes it is racist to support a white community instead and neglect other communities, and other times it is an indirect consequence of a white politician taking care of their own first. Republicans lack diversity and therefore look out for the interests of who they are familiar with more so than democrats as democrats have more diversity. Lead in the water is one terrifying example of the negligence politicians are to blame for. Republican governor Rick Snyder of Michigan and 8 others were criminally charged this year 2021 for their role in the water crisis. 

 

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@m76 If you want examples of racism on an institutional level, you only need to open your eyes. You won't find anything on paper that says "no blacks". But you will see blacks passed over for whites because they're black. It is a bone hard fact of the United States that more qualified people of color are passed over because they aren't the "corporate color". I don't know jack shit about computer specs, but I would very likely have a better chance of getting a job at Microsoft in their development than a black man who actually knows what the hell he is doing, simply because I'm white.

It's the same in the higher education as well. If you look into the ivies, you will see a very small percentage of the student body that is not white. However more blacks get athletic scholarships than whites do. Some of them because they love the sport, some because they know that there's no way they could go to college without one. First off you have to get accepted. Then you have to either have the money to begin with to pay for your education or qualify for student loans. Another roadblock for people of color.

You argue this from a blind spot because you know you're talking out of your ass, but refuse to admit it. It's pathetic.

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7 hours ago, m76 said:

I 100% agree with banning anything from being taught that fulfils these criteria. No person should be disadvantaged due to their group identity, or be in an advantageous position due to it. This bill literally wants to ban racial prejudice. How can you interpret this any other way?

 

You need to read between the lines when it comes to documents like this.  It's not about banning racial prejudice but about stopping people from being educated about it, it's literal censorship of history.  It's the very kind of ignorance and lack of understanding of other people that increases tension on topics like race in first place.

 

Let's use World War 2 and Nazi Germany as an example.  What if the history of Germany in the 1930's was never taught in schools?  Most people wouldn't know or understand how Adolf Hitler, a man was openly antisemitic and anti-democratic came into power.  His motivations for going to war with the rest of Europe and organising a genocide wouldn't be widely understood.  It might be uncomfortable at times but it's very important to learn about it because if future generations don't learn these things they will be doomed to make the same mistakes.

 

That's why this kind of legislation is a bad idea.  You don't educate people properly (especially about history) if you cherry pick just the facts that glorify or demonize the subject in the way suits a certain agenda.  You need to be honest and truth is America was built of the back of slaves.  The Native American tribes cheated out of their land and slaughtered by European settlers.  All Americans with the exception of those descended from those tribes are descended from immigrants or slaves.  It wasn't even that long ago the that black people in America had to fight for basic human rights.  I don't understand why anyone would think prohibiting educator's from teaching about these kind of events would do anything other than spread ignorance, confusion and isn't blatantly disrespectful.

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The US does not have a pretty history. It has a bloody history. Whites enslaved blacks. We enslaved the Chinese to build our railroads. We murdered entire tribes. We stole  sacred lands from the natives and put them in schools to learn that they were not allowed to speak their tribal language. They were required to speak English. Beatings and abuse were severe if they were caught speaking anything other than English. And let's not forget about the wars we fought against the Mexicans, to take their land. White greed is smeared with the blood of history. And it's not washing off.

The state of Missouri is named after a tribe that used to live here. There are none of them left. Smallpox almost wiped them out. They were forced off their lands and onto a reservation with the Otoe. After the last 200 years, they don't exist anymore.

White greed.

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Here is more from the republican shit show at fox news about their critical race theory fear in schools. Fox host claims he was taught Mein Kampf as part of the school curriculum. Say what? Did he just give example of schools teaching nazi propaganda? I just can't explain. READ:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/brian-kilmeade-hitler-mein-kampf-fox-and-firends-milley_n_60da9f8ce4b0360565caca1f

 

 

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On a similar topic as previously mentioned about the Texas revolution and how the ugly truth is left out, there was a book event that was canceled just 4 hours before due to the Texas governor pressuring it to cancel. The book was titled 'Forget the Alamo;' challenging the whitewashed history of the slogan 'remember the Alamo,' and including historical parts of the role of slavery that was left out. This is complete oppression of free speech. A governor pressuring the cancellation of a book event because you don't like its message? The authors accused the governor of "oppressing free speech and policing thought in Texas." 

https://www.businessinsider.com/texas-gop-event-slavery-alamo-shut-down-2021-7

 

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Posted (edited)

Ok lets get a few things straight you fucking white supremacist republiKKKlan bastards.

1.) As much as it pains and offends you, EVERYONE has a right to their opinion.

2.) As much as it pains you, EVERYONE has a right to the truth.

3.) As much as it pains you, YOUR OPINION IS NOT THE ONLY VALID ONE.

4.) As much as it pains you, EVERYONE has the right to learn.

 

 AND AS MUCH AS IT FUCKING PAINS YOU YOU DO NOT HAVE THE LEGAL OR MORAL RIGHT TO STOP AN EVENT THAT CHALLENGES YOUR BIGOTRY.

Edited by The Blackangel
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