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Shagger

Do we need somewhere for people to "chat" instead of the amount of PM style posts going on in the forum?

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On 3/29/2022 at 10:45 AM, kingpotato said:

More moderators might help but that's not going to 100% eliminate the problem.

Adding a bunch of moderators sometimes adds to the problems. If the wrong person is made a mod or admin, their ego could take over their duties. They would let their friends get away with whatever they wanted, while going after the ones they don't particularly like for the smallest thing. I've seen that happen. It happened on a forum I used to run, so I had to fire those mods, and appoint new ones. I've also seen it on forums that I joined. There's one that I'm on right now, and for whatever reason one of the mods took a real hatred of me. She attacked me for no reason. She was fired as a mod, and put on a parole type status. She eventually left the forum all together. I don't know what her problem was, but she absolutely hated me. And she abused her position to attack me at every opportunity.

Too many mods often equals more problems. But it also depends on who the person is. Some are great, and a true asset. Others should never be offered the privilege of assisting in running a forum for someone. It depends completely on the individual.

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12 minutes ago, The Blackangel said:

Adding a bunch of moderators sometimes adds to the problems. If the wrong person is made a mod or admin, their ego could take over their duties. They would let their friends get away with whatever they wanted, while going after the ones they don't particularly like for the smallest thing. I've seen that happen. It happened on a forum I used to run, so I had to fire those mods, and appoint new ones. I've also seen it on forums that I joined. There's one that I'm on right now, and for whatever reason one of the mods took a real hatred of me. She attacked me for no reason. She was fired as a mod, and put on a parole type status. She eventually left the forum all together. I don't know what her problem was, but she absolutely hated me. And she abused her position to attack me at every opportunity.

Too many mods often equals more problems. But it also depends on who the person is. Some are great, and a true asset. Others should never be offered the privilege of assisting in running a forum for someone. It depends completely on the individual.

True yeah, so moderators is not going to exactly solve the problem either it might create more problems. So have we come to a solution or agreement yet ? There are still many regular users who have not taken part of this conversation.

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On 3/30/2022 at 8:16 PM, The Blackangel said:

Adding a bunch of moderators sometimes adds to the problems. If the wrong person is made a mod or admin, their ego could take over their duties. They would let their friends get away with whatever they wanted, while going after the ones they don't particularly like for the smallest thing. I've seen that happen. It happened on a forum I used to run, so I had to fire those mods, and appoint new ones. I've also seen it on forums that I joined. There's one that I'm on right now, and for whatever reason one of the mods took a real hatred of me. She attacked me for no reason. She was fired as a mod, and put on a parole type status. She eventually left the forum all together. I don't know what her problem was, but she absolutely hated me. And she abused her position to attack me at every opportunity.

Too many mods often equals more problems. But it also depends on who the person is. Some are great, and a true asset. Others should never be offered the privilege of assisting in running a forum for someone. It depends completely on the individual.

I don't really know how much "work" it involves being a moderator here, so it was just a suggestion. I do however kinda curious how much you and shagger have to intervene because i have no idea. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Yaramaki said:

I don't really know how much "work" it involves being a moderator here, so it was just a suggestion. I do however kinda curious how much you and shagger have to intervene because i have no idea.

It varies. @DC prefers to let things run their course for the most part, so we try to do the same. But sometimes things are in blatant defiance of the forum rules, or a thread gets to a point that we have to step in. Aside from that, we're no different than anyone else here. Well, @Shagger is certainly... let's be polite and say "different".

Fuck it, he's just weird as hell.

if that ain't the fucking pot calling the kettle black

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1 hour ago, The Blackangel said:

It varies. @DC prefers to let things run their course for the most part, so we try to do the same. But sometimes things are in blatant defiance of the forum rules, or a thread gets to a point that we have to step in. Aside from that, we're no different than anyone else here. Well, @Shagger is certainly... let's be polite and say "different".

Fuck it, he's just weird as hell.

if that ain't the fucking pot calling the kettle black

 

Don't worry, there's nothing worse than being normal. Coming form you, that just enhances the compliment.

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Posted (edited)

I've just had to give a member a wrap on the kucles for going on what I call "a rampage" of single sentence replies on threads mostly about the same subject matter. I think maybe it's time to better explain why burst of low quality posts done at a pace sometimes faster that one post every two minutes is harmful to the forum

 

Somebody posting that much on so many topics so similarly themed in such a short space of time, it a split of your interest and it's impossible to believe that your caring that much about each one. That's the perspective, and like it or not, that matters despite the intention because that will affect how people engage and reply. Think about it, you see somebody had posted 30+ single sentence replies on a single sub-forum, like general gaming, a subject that holds a great deal of interest to you and want to discuss it on the forum, where do you start? It's frustrating and painstaking to go through all those topic one by one just to gauge the feelings, opinions and questions asked of a single person, especially when that individual just post a single, rushed sentence as the reply. It does not look like that individual actually cares much about what they post. It looks like somebody posting for numbers. Not to mention that these posts often look rushed with poor grammar and typos. The vast majority of people would be daunted and put off by this.

 

That's why these bursts of post low quality posts harm the forum. It makes it daunting for other people to reply to anything, especially amongst those of us who like to put together longer, more detailed replies and topic with links, YouTube videos, references, paragraphs and so on. Why put that effort in when somebody is inevitably gonna go on a rampage of single sentence replies to as many other threads as they can as if it's a race and bump that post down where nobody will see it? That's the kind the kind of complaints we're getting about this behaviour. This habit of posting is careless and it is selfish, and no amount of good intentions behind it is gonna change that.

 

I don't know how to make this any clearer. This is NOT a text a chain, it is NOT reddit, it is NOT discord and it is NOT social media. It is a forum. We are not expecting post to be legal documents nor a professors lecture, but there is an expected standard that is higher that the previously mentioned outlets.

 

Please, all we ask is that you post to this forum like it's a forum. Let me make it clear that what you are about to read it my own, personal guide and it comes only from me, not the authority of VGR. They are not hard-line rules

  • Use common sense when choosing to reply to a thread. When did the thread last get a reply? Is the thread dead? is the conversation still relevant? What of value can I really add to it? Would it be more appropriate to reply to this individual in a private message or a post to his/her profile?
  • Use common sense when crafting your reply to a thread. I understand that English is not the first language for many of you, but do try to make your post legible. If English is not your first language, that's all the more reason to take your time. In your reply, make your point and/or address some else's point to give us a perspective of yourself. State why you feel that way. Do you agree or not agree with what others are saying? State why you feel that way. Give details.
  • Use common sense when creating a new topic. Again, I understand that English is not the first language for many of you, but do try to make your opening post legible. If English is not your first language, that's all the more reason to take your time. Ask yourself, "Is this thread necessary?". I know that posting threads about already existing subjects is something of a grey area, but if the alternative is to reply to long, inactive thread with few in terms of replies and out of date information, assume it's ok to start a new one. Again, common sense. Craft your title with care. Make sure it's clear on showing what the topic is about. Remember, on VGR, the thread title forms the URL, so think about a title that will make the post visible on search engines. For example, if you are posting about a fix for a game breaking bug, you want the thread to be picked up by people searching for a solution to that same bug so they come to our forum for the answer. In the post, make it clear what subject is. Add external references or even graphics if you are up to it to validate the topic and make it stand out. State how you feel overall and why you feel that way. Tell us how you feel the situation you describe in the thread can be improve. Encourage others to state how the feel about it and why. If it's a news or political topic, link any articles or YouTube videos you found on the subject. And above all, make it worth it. If the opening thread will end up as one or two sentences with no external references, odds are it won't be.

 

You may have noticed a common theme there, common sense, and I believe in VGR's members, you can rely on your common sense. However, if these "rampages" continue, the staff will have little choice to consider other options. Time limits and other restrictions on posts, setting a more specific standard of quality that will be enforced or indeed trying some of the things suggested in this thread. Either way, I don't want that. I want people to start simply posting to this forum like its a forum, that's not asking for much.

Edited by Shagger
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To add to what @Shagger said, we have had people sign up and post the same thought on every thread they replied to, and even start their own topics to push that thought. No matter what was said, they would only post that one thought, or would incorporate it into all of their posts somehow. They would make multiple threads pushing it, and never reply to that thread again. Doing such actions not only gets on the nerves of the staff, but pisses off the rest of the forum as well. If you have a thought, feel free to post it. If you have a controversial thought, feel free to post it as well. But ask yourself "Am I ready for any backlash this post may get?" If the answer is "no" or "I don't know" then I would recommend waiting to post it until you feel ready for it.

As said, we understand that English is not the first language of many members. We truly do. But it's that first language of the majority of the members. So as said, take your time making posts so that the whole forum can understand what your point is. It's not a race to get it done. Before I post I always take the time to read through what I have written to check for typos and make sure what I'm wanting to say comes through clearly. Sure I miss several, but there's always the edit feature. The staff can edit at any time, but the members have a 10 minute window. If that has lapsed, you can always ask us if it's something big. But if it's just a small typo, we're not going to bother with that. For example if you meant to type colour instead of color we're not going to take the time to edit the post, as we have bigger fish to fry.

Either way, the staff has a job to try to keep things running smoothly. It's not always easy, and it's not always pleasant. But sometimes certain actions have to be taken, and occasionally, it's a "last resort" situation. But be assured, we don't do things of any kind of serious nature without lengthy discussion about it first.

So use your head, post your opinions, and offer facts when you can. Remember, quality is infinitely more important than quantity.

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Guys I do have to disagree with one of your proposals here, you shouldnt be deleting other people's comments even if the comment itself is consider spam or "low quality" , I strongly agree that the quality of the comments needs to be improved but if you start to arbitrary delete comments just because the mods dont consider a comment of being "quality" its going to make most people here not wanting to post anything for being afraid that their comment might get deleted. I know that for most people here english is not their first language (myself included) and sometimes it can be difficult to translate an idea, but that is not going to change overnight and surely being told that your comment is going to be deleted if its not up to a standard is going to make us think twice before making any comment at all or just to continue visiting the forum. 

Also there shouldnt be a problem with visiting or reviving old threads, as far as I know that is not against the forum policies.

I do agree some threads are getting out of control and I do agree that sometimes the thread needs to be locked all toguether, or some comments do need to be deleted depending on the situation.

But if a comment or reply or thread or whatever is going to be deleted there should be a more detailed process, like a report, a review talk between the mod and the offender, a chance to edit the comment if necessary or if possible or just simply a warning.  I dont want to find out that my comment was deleted without me knowing about it before first (if that ever happens) and I think everybody else here thinks the same.

I do encourage some members to try to put a little more effort into your comments , since honestly the quality of the replies is very dissapointing, But we should try and change the habits on the forum.

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1 minute ago, kingpotato said:

Guys I do have to disagree with one of your proposals here, you shouldnt be deleting other people's comments even if the comment itself is consider spam or "low quality" , I strongly agree that the quality of the comments needs to be improved but if you start to arbitrary delete comments just because the mods dont consider a comment of being "quality" its going to make most people here not wanting to post anything for being afraid that their comment might get deleted. I know that for most people here english is not their first language (myself included) and sometimes it can be difficult to translate an idea, but that is not going to change overnight and surely being told that your comment is going to be deleted if its not up to a standard is going to make us think twice before making any comment at all or just to continue visiting the forum. 

 

 

Trust me, and I'm sure I speak for @The Blackangel as well, the last thing we want to do is to start deleting people's posts, but there is a line to cross between a basic, but valid, forum post and something of so little worth it could be considered a form of spam. If some people don't step up thier game realize what the difference is, we are going to get to a point where we will have no choice.

 

19 minutes ago, kingpotato said:

Also there shouldnt be a problem with visiting or reviving old threads, as far as I know that is not against the forum policies.

 

I hate to repeat myself, but it's about common sense. If it's a choice between creating a new thread and post one one with little active and hasn't had a reply for months, we will now give people a row for creating a new thread. The worst that we'll do is merge threads together, and that's all. It really isn't that big of a deal and people shouldn't be afraid to this.

 

15 minutes ago, kingpotato said:

But if a comment or reply or thread or whatever is going to be deleted there should be a more detailed process, like a report, a review talk between the mod and the offender, a chance to edit the comment if necessary or if possible or just simply a warning.  I dont want to find out that my comment was deleted without me knowing about it before first (if that ever happens) and I think everybody else here thinks the same.

 

18 minutes ago, kingpotato said:

I do encourage some members to try to put a little more effort into your comments , since honestly the quality of the replies is very dissapointing, But we should try and change the habits on the forum.

 

I have been engaging with members on this issue. I won't say who, but I will say this. Some people put more effort into defending thier posting habits than they do on the forum itself, and it's frustrating. People just don't an issue with blasting out 30-40 one sentence posts in the space of an hour or so, but it is a problem. It is not possible to post with the very basic level of foresight, diligence and care at that kind of pace, it just can't be done.

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4 minutes ago, Shagger said:

Trust me, and I'm sure I speak for @The Blackangel as well, the last thing we want to do is to start deleting people's posts, but there is a line to cross between a basic, but valid, forum post and something of so little worth it could be considered a form of spam. If some people don't step up thier game realize what the difference is, we are going to get to a point where we will have no choice.

And what is the process or how do you determine what post needs to be deleted ? thats my concern, how can I as member be assured that my comment wont be deleted just because the modders didnt like it ? 
Im not trying to defend the posting habits of other members, Im also fed up with all those "spam" replies that dont add anything to the conversation. But I dont like the idea that my post might get deleted without a due process or warning before hand.

25 minutes ago, Shagger said:

I hate to repeat myself, but it's about common sense. If it's a choice between creating a new thread and post one one with little active and hasn't had a reply for months, we will now give people a row for creating a new thread. The worst that we'll do is merge threads together, and that's all. It really isn't that big of a deal and people shouldn't be afraid to this.


What if for me its common sense to continue an old thread rather than creating another one ? I always do a search on the forum to make sure the thread Im creating hasnt already been made. Making a duplicate thread just sounds like spam, I dont see a problem with threads being merge, but I much rather continue an old thread than unnecessarily creating a new one, for me thats just spam posting.

30 minutes ago, Shagger said:

I have been engaging with members on this issue. I won't say who, but I will say this. Some people put more effort into defending thier posting habits than they do on the forum itself, and it's frustrating. People just don't an issue with blasting out 30-40 one sentence posts in the space of an hour or so, but it is a problem. It is not possible to post with the very basic level of foresight, diligence and care at that kind of pace, it just can't be done.

I know who the usual suspects are, I agree we need to push them to change their posting habits, this cannot continue , it is very frustrating, some times I just avoid making a comment on a thread just so the "spam reply chain" can stop, we do need to do something about this and Im sure if we all pitch in this can be resolved but I dont think deleting comments is to way to go, or to be more specific threat of a comment being deleted without a proper procedure.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, kingpotato said:

And what is the process or how do you determine what post needs to be deleted ? thats my concern, how can I as member be assured that my comment wont be deleted just because the modders didnt like it ? 
Im not trying to defend the posting habits of other members, Im also fed up with all those "spam" replies that dont add anything to the conversation. But I dont like the idea that my post might get deleted without a due process or warning before hand.

 

Since I know you didn't think so little of me, @DC and @The Blackangel, I'll ignore the implication that any of us would abuse our power like that and try to address the underlying concern. Of course, there would have to be established parameters and rules that everyone would be made aware off. But like I said, this kind of action would be the last resort and quite frankly wouldn't actually solve the problem. It would be more akin to "cleaning up the mess". You are 100% correct that people should alter thier attitude on how the post on the forum. Ultimately, that is the only thing that will actually work. We can try and guide people to better posting habits, but they don't want to listen, what's next? Restrictions so people can post a certain amount in a set space of time? This is not an easy problem to solve unless these people just listen understand how this sort of thing hurts the forum.

 

2 hours ago, kingpotato said:

What if for me its common sense to continue an old thread rather than creating another one ? I always do a search on the forum to make sure the thread Im creating hasnt already been made. Making a duplicate thread just sounds like spam, I dont see a problem with threads being merge, but I much rather continue an old thread than unnecessarily creating a new one, for me thats just spam posting.

 

Well, that's a judgment call and it's up to the moderators. But alas, we are human. Sometime you'll agree with our actions, and sometimes you won't. I would only merge two or more threads together if;

 

  • They are about the same thing.
  • If the older thread has been recently active and/or if it has a lot replies.

 

Otherwise, I'm inclined to just let the new thread be. Like I said, somebody posting a thread about an already existing topic isn't exactly a major violation on VGR. It usually happens when people are new to the forum. If somebody does it repeatedly, we point out the search feature that's about as far as it goes.

 

On the flipside, if someone bumped up a old thread instead of starting a new one, it all depends on the thread they bumped up. If that was a dead thread with few replies to it and especially if the thread was really old, I'd say that is taking the stance of not filling the forum with repeating topics too far. I have seen very recently (and this person knows who they are) somebody scrolling down a sub-form replying to every topic about the same subject matter one by one with no care about how the threads got or what worth they were even to begin with. And because he started to most recent to oldest in that order, what we ended up was threads with one or two replies that hadn't been posted for well over a year bumped to the top of the sub-forum. Literally dozens of them. And of course, all the more current topics were bumped at least one page back. Even you @kingpotato have to agree that that is ridiculous. He/she could have instead created one new thread to compile all his thoughts and passions about the subject into one new thread and that would have been a lot better. Like I said time and again, common sense.

 

So you see, it comes down to judgment.

 

2 hours ago, kingpotato said:

I know who the usual suspects are, I agree we need to push them to change their posting habits, this cannot continue , it is very frustrating, some times I just avoid making a comment on a thread just so the "spam reply chain" can stop, we do need to do something about this and Im sure if we all pitch in this can be resolved but I dont think deleting comments is to way to go, or to be more specific threat of a comment being deleted without a proper procedure.

 

As I said, deleting post would to used to "clean up the mess", not to solve the problem because it wouldn't solve the problem. This problem can really be solve by the people that cause it. And all it takes is posting to the forum like it's forum. To actually care about what you post. I really don't think that is asking for much.

Edited by Shagger
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I've made it no secret that I get super fucking irritated by these posting habits that are under discussion.  There are users here that seem to just pick a subforum that they want to screw up, click and make a shitty Twitter style post that is barely on topic without reading or otherwise giving a crap what anyone else is saying then move to the next thread to do it over and over again.

 

I like to think I'm one of those guys that actually care about what they are putting out there.  If I don't feel like I can create a post that has some meaningful contribution to make then I don't make the post at all.  My track record ain't perfect and I have made some stinkers, but the one thing I NEVER done is "post for points".

 

Speaking of points.  That sadly, I think is one source of the issue.  @The Blackangel stated earlier "quality is infinitely more important than quantity" and I believe that is what we all want.  But the truth is the way rewards system is set up here gears towards completely the opposite.  The more posts you make the more points you get regardless of quality.  The system doesn't know the difference a lovingly crafted and thought out review or character analysis and a some ass' 100th shitpost about FIFA 22.

 

It would obviously be to taxing for administration to have to go through the forum deciding which posts are making a good contribution and which aren't.  Not to mention that posts in themselves are subjective and any judgement would unavoidably opinionated.  @Shagger also seemed to be expressing some frustration at these people, like they don't consider and/or care that what their doing is even an issue.  If that is the case then I doubt that telling them to "please not to" is going to be very effective.

 

So I'm my opinion limiting the amount of posts each user can make is the only real solution.  I think a limit of 32 posts per day.  I've come up with this based on 2 post per waking hour assuming your asleep for 8.  I think if your not being a total spam whore that's more than enough.  We could also introduce timers when users are making lot's of posts over a short span of time, and repeat offenders could have their posts subject to review by admin before going up.

 

I don't want to be that jerk who pisses and moans about other people's posting, but I'm tired of going on the forums activity page to check the latest posts and have go through literally pages and pages of posts from the same users over and over and I'm sure I'm not the only one.  It's of little benefit to them either, because while I'm skipping through it I'm obviously not reading on even paying attention to what their saying.

 

If you are one of those people (and it should be obvious to you by now if you are), please read @Shagger's earlier post and his advice seriously so we can avoid having to put any restrictions in place.  Prove me wrong and show their not needed.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Crazycrab said:

I've made it no secret that I get super fucking irritated by these posting habits that are under discussion.  There are users here that seem to just pick a subforum that they want to screw up, click and make a shitty Twitter style post that is barely on topic without reading or otherwise giving a crap what anyone else is saying then move to the next thread to do it over and over again.

 

I like to think I'm one of those guys that actually care about what they are putting out there.  If I don't feel like I can create a post that has some meaningful contribution to make then I don't make the post at all.  My track record ain't perfect and I have made some stinkers, but the one thing I NEVER done is "post for points".

 

Speaking of points.  That sadly, I think is one source of the issue.  @The Blackangel stated earlier "quality is infinitely more important than quantity" and I believe that is what we all want.  But the truth is the way rewards system is set up here gears towards completely the opposite.  The more posts you make the more points you get regardless of quality.  The system doesn't know the difference a lovingly crafted and thought out review or character analysis and a some ass' 100th shitpost about FIFA 22.

 

It would obviously be to taxing for administration to have to go through the forum deciding which posts are making a good contribution and which aren't.  Not to mention that posts in themselves are subjective and any judgement would unavoidably opinionated.  @Shagger also seemed to be expressing some frustration at these people, like they don't consider and/or care that what their doing is even an issue.  If that is the case then I doubt that telling them to "please not to" is going to be very effective.

 

So I'm my opinion limiting the amount of posts each user can make is the only real solution.  I think a limit of 32 posts per day.  I've come up with this based on 2 post per waking hour assuming your asleep for 8.  I think if your not being a total spam whore that's more than enough.  We could also introduce timers when users are making lot's of posts over a short span of time, and repeat offenders could have their posts subject to review by admin before going up.

 

I don't want to be that jerk who pisses and moans about other people's posting, but I'm tired of going on the forums activity page to check the latest posts and have go through literally pages and pages of posts from the same users over and over and I'm sure I'm not the only one.  It's of little benefit to them either, because while I'm skipping through it I'm obviously not reading on even paying attention to what their saying.

 

If you are one of those people (and it should be obvious to you by now if you are), please read @Shagger's earlier post and his advice seriously so we can avoid having to put any restrictions in place.  Prove me wrong and show their not needed.

 

Lots of good points and good ideas.

 

I never though of it that way, but you are right when you say people who post in this manner will be far mor likly to have thier posts ignored by others. A "white noise" sort of thing, I suppose. another reason why this should be discouraged.

 

However, I personally am not a fan of daily limits on posts. This isn't about people posting to much, it's about people "posting for points" as you put it, and thusly not really caring about what they post just so long as it's something. A daily limit of 32 would likely only result in the individual in question doing 32 "shitposts" over the course of an hour or so, then leave the forum for the day. They would actually spend less time here actually looking through the forum for inspiration and learning more about other members of the community. That's why I do like the idea of timers. Let's say people were not allowed to post more that 4 times in ten minutes, that would encourage them to put a little more effort into what they post as in those 10 minutes they will be able to edit. There would be no point is rushing through it to get to the next post. That could maybe work, but the solutions is still, like you and @kingpotato have said to simply adjust thier posting habits and understand why these kinds of posting habits hurt the forum.

Edited by Shagger
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The last thing we want to do is start deleting posts. And we would never do it just because we "don't like" what the poster says. This forum is about facts and opinions. While we moderate the forum, we have neither the right nor the privilege to moderate anyone's opinions. If we start going that route we will end up with a fascist forum ruled with an iron fist. Within a week, there will be no more members here. I don't want to see that, as I'm sure no one else does. We're about the free exchange of ideas.

If however we do delete a post, it's because it was in direct defiance of the rules. Or it was overly offensive, or damaging. For example, if someone came here spreading misinformation and conspiracy theories about Covid, we would be on that like a pack of dogs on a 3 legged cat. I'm sure the rest of the forum would too. That person may be instantly banned, if @DC deems it necessary, or be suspended with a heavy warning. We don't want to take any kind of drastic measures like that, but if we have no other choice, we will do it. Also we don't delete posts without a PM to the poster letting them know and telling them why we deleted their post. @Shagger has deleted several of my posts in the past, and he always sent me a PM letting me know and telling me why.

I'm not sure how I feel about timers or time limits. It seems like moderation beyond the scope to me. What we want, is for people to think before they post. Reply to the discussion if you feel you can make a meaningful contribution, or maybe don't reply until you feel you can. If I don't think a conversation is at some kind of point that I could contribute to the discussion, I leave it be. If it reaches a point that I feel I could offer something of some value, no matter how small, I'll offer it. For me personally, the vast majority of posts here are things that I can't offer anything that holds any value to the discussion. So I don't bother replying.

We only want what's best for this forum. We're not the emperors of this forum. We're just moderators. We're going to fuck up at times. We're going to make bad calls. But we're human, and humans make mistakes. Well, @Shagger is human. I'm a vampire.

Edited by The Blackangel
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